CRSC for drone operators???

Wally3430

Wally3430

PEB Forum Regular Member
PEB Forum Veteran
Registered Member
Posted originally in vets.yuku

I hesitate to ask questions related to this subject due to the consistent negative comments related to drone operations, but I need assitance...so here it goes...

I'm an 18 year, E-8, active AF RPA operator currently in the mid-stages of the IDES process. My PEBLO has notified me (unofficially) that I'm being found unfit. One of the unfitting conditions is PTSD. I'm currently awaiting VA ratings, but I wanted to get my ducks in a row ASAP. I have 1900 "flight" hours with a majority of those in a combat role. Approximetely 600 of those combat hours were performed while physically down range performing base defense. Dozens of terminal guidance of kinetic strikes on baddies while stateside and deployed. While deployed, I was subject to rocket and mortar attacks same as everyone else on the base was. I'll try to break out my supporting documents as briefly as I can....

1. I have 16 Aerial Achievement medals each basically saying........ "Sergeant XXXXX expert counter-rocket defense efforts during local base defense missions directly contributed to the safety and security of base personnel. He increased the the freedom of special operations and coalition task force movement outside the base perimeter by providing armed overwatch and improvised explosive device detection, hindering insurgent activities and eliminating terrorist safe havens throughout the region". And I have one Meriitorious Service Medal that states "...While performing these duties, he provided terminal guidance for ten AGM-114 Hellfire missiles eliminating six enemy insurgents and one high value target".

2. I have numerous EPRs that spoke to employing weapons and eliminating targets while deployed and from home station.

3. Orders that confirm I was deployed to that location

4. Letters from Commander and Director of Operations who operated the aircraft with me on multiple strikes while deployed. They also confirm exposures to mortar and rocket fire.

5. I've received the PTSD diagnosis from both AF mental health and the VA. Both mention my role as a sensor operator, but don't specifically link my PTSD to a single combat event. (italics because it is concerning to me for the purposes of CRSC approval.) IMHO, it's blatently obvious what the PTSD stems from (repeated combat actions), my NARSUM isn't very specific, it states in part.... "SM experiences functional impairment in his role as a sensor operator, unable to complete mission requirements due to PTSD symptoms; poor concentration, panic attacks, and emotional reaction impair SM's ability to perform sensor operator duties"

6. Current commanders letter stating "he was placed on duties not to include flying status for his mental conditions after voluntarily seeking help following his mid-2014 deployment." and "his 1900 flight hours as a MQ-9 sensor operator have almost exclusively been conducted in combat. For three of the past five years, sgt xxxxxx was on continous rotating shifts operating the MQ-9 aircraft in OEF from CONUS. He also deployed to OEF twice and performed the same combat role while physically in Afghanistan. After returning from his last deployment in 2014,it was evident that he was being affected by issues stemming from continous, long-term combat exposure."

So, I don't know if there is a "specific event" that caused my issue, but likely a combination of many events. Upon researching CRSC requirements, I believe this falls under Armed Conflict or perhaps even Instrument of War. This may very well be a losing battle, but at this point I feel it's prudent to explore applying for it in the event I am medically retired just short of 20 years of service. Currently, I'm attempting to consult with my mental health provider to see if he'll write a memo or SOMETHING to directly link my PTSD to combat actions. Again, I found out unofficially I was found unfit. I'm currently awaiting my VA ratings and PEB summary that is due any day now. I'd appreciate any insight/helpful pointers in pursuing CRSC. Am I missing the "direct link" or "documentation" to prove that combat operations are causal? Is there anything else I can provide that I don't already have?

I ask that if you respond, please refrain from questioning my PTSD diagnosis or comparing your trauma to my trauma and if mine is "worthy". I have utmost respect for our ground pounders and have done my best to support them from above. I don't question what they have experienced on their end. I voluntarily made the decision to seek help for PTSD, a decision my family both made, and it likely has cut my career short. So, any assistance is appreciated.
 
I used to write CRSC appeals for the ABCMR. Sounds like a CRSC condition to me.
 
I feel you have a great shot at getting CRSC granted. When you do apply, I highly recommend that you focus on the events that took place overseas, in the theater of operations, in particular mortar attacks and the movements outside the base perimeter. I'd omit the language about the attacks while stateside, they may muddy up the waters, as well as many leaders being skeptical about PTSD occurring in stateside missions.

I am not placing any personal opinion, I just know that the prejudice does exist.
 
Just received PEB results. Recommendation: TDRL 70% DoD, 90% VA. Ratings came back as expected. I didn't expect TDRL. I also didn't expect my PTSD to be rated "Combat, NOT combat related". I've accumulated 3 commanders' letters detailing deployed combat ops and mentioning immediate PTSD symptoms seen right after combat actions. I also went back to my MH doc and got him to write a MFR stating that he didn't write the "how I got PTSD" in any treatment records (he thought it wasn't "medically relevant" to treatment). I plan on appealing the PEB recommendation primarily because of the "NOT combat related" comment, but also because of the TDRL and not PDRL recommendation (my other unfitting and stable condition is rated at 30%, which in itself would warrant a PDRL recommendation I would think). Thoughts?
 
Wally3430 said:
Just received PEB results. Recommendation: TDRL 70% DoD, 90% VA. Ratings came back as expected. I didn't expect TDRL. I also didn't expect my PTSD to be rated "Combat, NOT combat related". I've accumulated 3 commanders' letters detailing deployed combat ops and mentioning immediate PTSD symptoms seen right after combat actions. I also went back to my MH doc and got him to write a MFR stating that he didn't write the "how I got PTSD" in any treatment records (he thought it wasn't "medically relevant" to treatment). I plan on appealing the PEB recommendation primarily because of the "NOT combat related" comment, but also because of the TDRL and not PDRL recommendation (my other unfitting and stable condition is rated at 30%, which in itself would warrant a PDRL recommendation I would think). Thoughts?
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Indeed, congratulations on the recent receipt of your IPEB findings! :)

From my experiences in the DoD IDES process with having two PEB-referred "unfit for duty" medical conditions (e.g., PTSD and thoracolumbar spine), each medical condition needs to be determined "permanent and stable" for placement onto the DoD military PDRL.

Hence, my thoracolumbar spine medical condition was determined to be "permanent and stable" but my PTSD medical condition was determined to be "permanent and unstable" which resulted in the IPEB's recommendation for placement onto the DoD military TDRL at that particular point in time when in the DoD IDES process.

In retrospect, it's dependent upon how the DoVA D-RAS evaluated your PTSD medical condition which shall have an important impact on whether the IPEB will recommend placement onto the DoD military TDRL or DoD military PDRL in my overall opinion.

To that extent, as in my particular situation, if the DoVA D-RAS evaluated your PTSD medical condition IAW the criteria as outlined in 38 CFR VASRD §4.129 Mental disorders due to traumatic stress...

"When a mental disorder that develops in service as a result of a highly stressful event is severe enough to bring about the veteran's release from active military service, the rating agency shall assign an evaluation of not less than 50 percent and schedule an examination within the six month period following the veteran's discharge to determine whether a change in evaluation is warranted. (Authority: 38 U.S.C. 1155) [61 FR 52700, Oct. 8, 1996]"

Then, a recommendation for placement onto the DoD military TDRL will probably be adjudicated by the IPEB unless the military service member's DoD IDES case file meets the authority for placement onto the DoD military PDRL by having medical conditions which are "permanent and stable" rated at 80% or higher (singularly or combined).

Nonetheless, I hope for much success with an overall favorable DoD IDES process outcome resulting in a combat-related determination and a final DoD military PDRL case file adjudication. Take care!

Thus, I quite often comment that "possessing well-informed knowledge is truly a powerful equalizer!"

Best Wishes!
 
A FPEB may rate the PTSD combat related. I wish you the best. MDG
 
chaplaincharlie said:
A FPEB may rate the PTSD combat related. I wish you the best. MDG
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That's what we're hoping for. OAC says PEB award of "combat related" has been an issue for nearly everyone recently. I feel pretty good about getting it from the FPEB. At least I'll be able to look them in the eye if they tell me it's not combat related.
 
Wally3430 said:
That's what we're hoping for. OAC says PEB award of "combat related" has been an issue for nearly everyone recently. I feel pretty good about getting it from the FPEB. At least I'll be able to look them in the eye if they tell me it's not combat related.
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Glad to hear your are not settling. Yes, its a delay, but the tax free benefits CRSC are life long!
 
My case was very similar. I went to the FPEB to argue combat related and PDRL vs the non-combat related and TDRL that they proposed. They starting the hearing off with..."after reviewing all of your Air Medals, Combat Action Medal, MSM's, and buddy statements that you submitted for this hearing we have awarded you combat related". I didn't have to say a word about any of it to the FPEB.
My argument for PDRL for PTSD went differently. It was denied at the FPEB and SECAF appeal. I was trying to argue that my 70% rating from the VA for the last 3 years and only doing the MEB process in the ANG in terms of military exposure showed my condition to be stable. My SECAF response was basically we will re-evaluate in 6 months once your away from the rigors of military service. I'm in the ANG doing 2 days a month.....not sure what the rigors are?
Keep fighting it may get you to 20 years, it took my process about 18 months from start of MEB to retirement.
 
Well, my attorney sent in the summary package to the FPEB challenging the non-combat related finding for PTSD. They denied it. So, I'll be heading to San Antonio in a couple weeks for the in-person board. I don't see them changing their mind. I've given them all the ammo I have...perhaps if they see my pretty face they'll award combat related? Regardless, I'm already prepared to appeal to SECAF if they deny it in-person. I asked my attorney what they said for the summary denial and he said "AFPC is not awarding a combat related finding unless lead is flying at you". Apparently the AF disregards simulation of war, instrumentality of war, and/or hazardous service; all criteria paths to award a combat related finding. Of course, there's always the JQP card to play....
 
Wally3430 said:
Well, my attorney sent in the summary package to the FPEB challenging the non-combat related finding for PTSD. They denied it. So, I'll be heading to San Antonio in a couple weeks for the in-person board. I don't see them changing their mind. I've given them all the ammo I have...perhaps if they see my pretty face they'll award combat related? Regardless, I'm already prepared to appeal to SECAF if they deny it in-person. I asked my attorney what they said for the summary denial and he said "AFPC is not awarding a combat related finding unless lead is flying at you". Apparently the AF disregards simulation of war, instrumentality of war, and/or hazardous service; all criteria paths to award a combat related finding. Of course, there's always the JQP card to play....
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Indeed, never default acceptance to any injustices! That's the fighting spirit which is always my stance! Take care!

Thus, I quite often comment that "possessing well-informed knowledge is truly a powerful equalizer!"

Best Wishes!
 
Well, I had to withdraw my combat related appeal (5 minutes prior to the in-person board starting). I thought we had a very very strong argument for it and my attorney did too, but due to some last minute shenanigans from the board, one of my ratings came into serious question of being found fit (asthma...and even though I believed it to be unfitting and could defend that, my records were spotty and I didn't want to take the risk). I decided the appeal for combat related PTSD wasn't worth the risk of losing a unfit finding for asthma. I could have had my total rating dropped from 70% to 50% by the FPEB. I posted the story on this in the Formal PEB forum here...http://www.pebforum.com/site/threads/advice-on-fpeb.34379/ My attorney contacted the AF CRSC office and asked them if they approve CRSC claims when the PEB finds a qualifying injury "non-combat related". They said no. So now it looks like at least my first CRSC claim will be denied because I don't have the "combat related" finding. Next chance I have to challenge the "non combat related" finding will be at my 6th month TDRL re-eval. I'm hoping my asthma does not come into question at the TDRL eval. My AF Form 356/PEB findings says the only clinic I need to get a TDRL re-eval with is psychiatry. That tells me the asthma will not be looked at by the TDRL PEB. Any experts want to weigh in on this? Looks like I'm leaving the Air Force at 18 years a little jaded :/
 
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Wally3430.

I'll play the role of the a-hole. In order for you/us to receive compensation the supporting evidence is extremely important, if it's unclear or hazy people may not be able to make a determination about something. I hope this helps: when we say something we are responsible to present our argument and help walk others to the conclusion. Our medical records speak for us, and is why the MEB and informal PEB takes place without the requirement of being physically present.

I strongly agree with gsfowler and his recommendation that you focus on the events that occurred when physically located in the theater of operations. It does not mean that your other missions didn't occur without bad Ju-Ju, you were doing your job but locality can play a role given the situation.

Clarify if you would, "you don't know if there is a specific event that caused your issue or if it's cumulative". If you don't know the answer to this you're asking a lot from strangers to make that determination on your behalf.

Currently there is a clear distinction of being "in combat" vs "operating in support of combat operations". Such as, I took two rounds and my Kevlar saved my life vs I was 14 miles away firing howitzers etc. No one says the howitzer isn't detonating, killing and maiming but the challenge is to explain how that round impacted you, your life? You have to be able to tie all of that together, I know it sucks and it's frustrating but it's what you have to do.

Hopefully you understand that I'm not bashing a drone operator, and you understand your going to have to lead the horse to the water and motivate or compel him to shove his face in and drink. That's a challenge we all face, but, as hard as it is to swallow the burden of proof is placed on us. For some it is unfortunately easier however those cases usually come at a cost of body parts and lives.

In 1-4 above you identify what your job is and what you did.

#5 in my opinion is extremely prejudicial that there's no clear explanation to support a claim of combat PTSD, or combat-related. You say you have it, ok, no ones saying you don't. However, the lack of information is detrimental and maybe the cause of why it's not fully supportable. I think your biggest obstacle is the result of the lack of causation as to how you came to have PTSD, it's not a matter of if, or if it physically impacts you. You have highlight what caused the PTSD.

The letter by the commander says it's clear you weren't able to perform your duties anymore, ok. But does he say why and how he came to that determination? Sometimes less is not always better.

I wish you the best and hope this may help in your case.
 
Airborne, thx for the in-depth discussion. Everything you said makes sense for the most part. Due to my ignorance of the process prior to the PEB, I assumed the PEB would find it combat related based on the documentation I had already. After the PEB results came back and I saw "not combat related", I said "wtf?" and then researched it more. I was able to track down 3 different letters from 3 different O's that I flew with at home station AND deployed. Those letters laid out in detail drone operations in and out of theatre, two rocket attacks we were involved with while deployed, and how both drone ops and rocket attacks contributed to PTSD. They were there with me during them..one was my commander. They saw the immediate effects and documented them. My FPEB attorney advised me to talk about both...so I wrote an in-depth letter for the FPEB about all of it (which is collaborated by 3 supervisor/crewmember letters). Attorney thought it was clearly qualifying for a combat related finding. So while I understand now that while the initial PEB found it not combat related, I'm highly confident I accumulated enough supporting data for the FPEB to find it combat related...directly combat related and/or instrumentality of war. The problem now is, as detailed by my last post, is that I didn't even get the opportunity to present my case to the formal board. So now it's on to TDRL and 6 months until my TDRL re-eval. When that happens, the IPEB will have ALL supporting documents in which to award a combat related finding (I hope). My worry is, if the PEB DOESN'T see it that way, I will again appeal to the FPEB. From what I've learned through experience and thru my attorney, the IPEB is much more liberal with their findings compared to the FPEB. So yes, everything is thoroughly documented, letters from multiple commanders, a letter from mental health doc, and a flight doc memo make clear the connection/cause of my PTSD and the impact it has. All those letters I didn't have available before the IPEB made their ruling, but they're available now. Again, the FPEB denied my "summary" a week ago...but my in-person appeal didn't take place at all.
 
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The letters from the two healthcare providers are helpful, what's most important is the diagnosis and its causation and its effect is in your medical records. Our medical records are a critical component and serve as the foundation we build our house (case) on. The letters are good but serve to compliment the foundation.

Are your records by the mental health provider written vaguely? It is reasonable and maybe necessary to ask them to add more in depth and detailed information as to your having PTSD. Sometimes there's need to be a more distinct BLUF: such as, you killed people. You performed your war time mission, you pulled the trigger that resulted in a human hot spot being obliterated, and that meant you had the front row seat and watched as a persons upper and lower torso were separated and their hot spots of the upper and lower torso began to fade and then it was black. By performing your combat duties you killed # of people, for # months day in day out. I can imagine how this can turn into a type of emotional cross, your penance, that you will carry for the remainder of your life. When that's explored and any semi rationale person would break that down, man. If I was in your shoes, I say to myself: I've killed someone (silence, while reflecting on what those words mean) how destructive the act was and the horror associated with war. Toss the WHY off to the side so it doesn't distract and the focus is, those three little words.

Brother... I carry a cross for the profession I have chosen. I've held death in my hands, I've put my hands inside living and the dead. Felt the hotness of an internal organ, full of life and then the coldness. I have seen shit the public won't ever understand, most of the other service members won't understand, it's not their fault, I chose my MOS and that brings me back to this being the emotional cross I have to carry with me for the rest of my life.

Lemme finish this with, there's been saves, damn there's been saves and there's no better feeling than realizing I was a part of that, someone is alive and those four kids still have their parent.

And this is short lived and my mind is back to those wounded.

I have good days and I have days, a good day for me is when I don't remember those days, my mind didn't go there. I need those days more than ever, those are the days I get back strength to prepare for days like today.

Seriously man, best of luck. Documentation and a consistent history of recieving care whether it's physical or emotional will usually trump all.

- Michael
 
airbornemedic911 said:
The letters from the two healthcare providers are helpful, what's most important is the diagnosis and its causation and its effect is in your medical records. Our medical records are a critical component and serve as the foundation we build our house (case) on. The letters are good but serve to compliment the foundation.

Are your records by the mental health provider written vaguely? It is reasonable and maybe necessary to ask them to add more in depth and detailed information as to your having PTSD. Sometimes there's need to be a more distinct BLUF: such as, you killed people. You performed your war time mission, you pulled the trigger that resulted in a human hot spot being obliterated, and that meant you had the front row seat and watched as a persons upper and lower torso were separated and their hot spots of the upper and lower torso began to fade and then it was black. By performing your combat duties you killed # of people, for # months day in day out. I can imagine how this can turn into a type of emotional cross, your penance, that you will carry for the remainder of your life. When that's explored and any semi rationale person would break that down, man. If I was in your shoes, I say to myself: I've killed someone (silence, while reflecting on what those words mean) how destructive the act was and the horror associated with war. Toss the WHY off to the side so it doesn't distract and the focus is, those three little words.

Brother... I carry a cross for the profession I have chosen. I've held death in my hands, I've put my hands inside living and the dead. Felt the hotness of an internal organ, full of life and then the coldness. I have seen shit the public won't ever understand, most of the other service members won't understand, it's not their fault, I chose my MOS and that brings me back to this being the emotional cross I have to carry with me for the rest of my life.

Lemme finish this with, there's been saves, damn there's been saves and there's no better feeling than realizing I was a part of that, someone is alive and those four kids still have their parent.

And this is short lived and my mind is back to those wounded.

I have good days and I have days, a good day for me is when I don't remember those days, my mind didn't go there. I need those days more than ever, those are the days I get back strength to prepare for days like today.

Seriously man, best of luck. Documentation and a consistent history of recieving care whether it's physical or emotional will usually trump all.

- Michael
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Thx Medic. I can relate a bit to your side of the house being I was also a firefighter for 7 years. Lost more than we saved. For whatever reason, dealing with trying to save people in person didn't have much effect on me. Not nearly as much as taking lives remotely---figure that one out! But I can obviously see how it would effect some folks. As for the mental health letter, the original MH NARSUM was vague. I went back to MH to get the doc to be more specific and he wrote about the treatment I underwent, and what my job details were leading up to the diagnosis (i.e. hunting/smoking Tali's). He specifically said that the "how I got the injury" was irrelevant for treatment and that's why he didn't mention it.
 
Thought I'd update this. CRSC board just awarded total 60%; 50% for PTSD and 10% for Tinnitus. So, yes, drone operators can get CRSC. Happy Valentines Day.
 
Congratulations!! Did everything turn out as well as you were hoping for?

Did the re-write by your MH Provider help?
 
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