RETIREE RECALL, FIT BY PRESUMPTION

Now the Crazy of it all "for Me" goes back to Mike's post 26 July 12, He was right and I was WRONG. Money is the same. I thought I would get the 75%,,,,,,,,, WRONG!!!!​
I do not. I can not get more the my 65% longevity retirement. Yes I will get CRDP. The single biggest benefit is the IDES and the speedy VA rating. Not sure how anyone would ever get the 75% for "disability." By law, one can not get more $ than he/she would have receive for longevity from the military.
This is not right. What you may be referring to is that the CRDP calculation puts a restoration cap of 2.5% times years of service times retired base pay....I do believe that you are getting what you are saying you are getting. Just that it is not the case that length of service caps your disability retirement pay. Hard to tell what may have happened in your case.

Fine, I did that - Four of my unfit-for-duty conditions meet the criteria to overcome the presumption rule - and I sent in my appeal rebuttal. This time, they moved the goal posts and said that, because I'm a Retiree Recall, there is no period of presumption and my rebuttal was denied based on that - the regulations are silent on whether or not the preiod of presumption restarts when a retiree recall comes on active duty and the PEB took the conservative position that I don't have a period of presumption.

My formal board is scheduled for 12 April and I'm looking for any help on if anyone has found something that helps clarify whther or not a retiree recall's perid of presumption restarts or not?

There is a very technical legal question here about what deference do agencies get in interpreting their own regulations. The standard rule is that they get a lot of deference. The famous administrative law case is called Chenery. However, there is an exception to the Chenery deference- that is when multiple agencies are interpreting the same regulation (which you find often in military disability issues- because each branch of service has its own implementing regulations). The case that lays out the exception is called Auer.

What caught my eye about your post, though, is that it seems that you are focused on the presumptive period. Recall, even if PFIT applies, it can be overcome. So, you have an additional argument that you can make.
 
A medical retirement is to compensate a soldier for the loss of a career. While there are exceptions based on grave illnesses or injuries after a soldier submits an application for retirement, it is generally held that once an application for retirement is submitted there can be no loss of career. The soldier has completed his career.

When a military retiree is recalled to active duty it is in a retired status (check your orders). Therefore, your retired status doesn't change. So there is no loss of career to compensate for . . .

Ed,

Lets say a healthy 20 year retiree is recalled to active duty. He is sent to Afghanistan where he is hit by an IED and loses both legs. Would he not be eligible for a disability retirement? What about the fact a disability retirement is tax-free? Should he lose that benefit because he was retired prior to being reactivated and sent into harms way?

Mike
 
I can see the logic of recalling an retiree for DES processing. Remember, part of the reason of the DES is to maintain a fit force. Retirees are part of the reserve structure subject to a call to active duty. Therefore the fitness of retirees matters and if a retirees should have gone through DES processing but did not, it makes sense to do so if his fitness for recall is in question (i.e. he did not meet retention standards when retired.)

Mike
 
Lakeman,

It is a matter of semantics. Yes you can get a disability retirement of 75% but that retirement will be offset by your VA compensation. CRDP will restore that offset but only to the amount of retirement earned by length of service.

In general, when eligible for CRDP, you will get an amount from DoD and the VA that equals your total VA and your LOS retirement amount. There are folks that get more. It involves cases where the amount of the disability retirement exceeds the combined amount of VA compensation and the LOS retirement amount.

Mike
 
Ed,

Lets say a healthy 20 year retiree is recalled to active duty. He is sent to Afghanistan where he is hit by an IED and loses both legs. Would he not be eligible for a disability retirement? What about the fact a disability retirement is tax-free? Should he lose that benefit because he was retired prior to being reactivated and sent into harms way?

Mike

As I said Mike, the regulation makes exceptions for grave illnesses or injuries.

AR 635-40

3–2. Presumptions


The following presumptions will apply to physical disability evaluation:

a. Before and during active service.


(1) A Soldier was in sound physical and mental condition upon entering active service except for physical

disabilities noted and recorded at the time of entry.

(2) Any disease or injury discovered after a Soldier entered active service, with the exception of congenital and

hereditary conditions, was not due to the Soldier’s intentional misconduct or willful neglect and was incurred in line of

duty (LD).

(3) If the foregoing presumptions are overcome by a preponderance of the evidence, any additional disability or

death resulting from the preexisting injury or disease was caused by military service aggravation. (Only specific

findings of “natural progression” of the preexisting disease or injury, based upon well-established medical principles

are enough to overcome the presumption of military service aggravation.)

(4) Acute infections and sudden developments occurring while the Soldier is in military service will be regarded as

service-incurred or service-aggravated. Acute infections are those such as pneumonia, active rheumatic fever (even

though recurrent), acute pleurisy, or acute ear disease. Sudden developments are those such as hemoptysis, lung

collapse, perforating ulcer, decompensating heart disease, coronary occlusion, thrombosis, or cerebral hemorrhage. This

presumption may be overcome when a preponderance of the evidence shows that no permanent new or increased

disability resulting from these causes occurred during active military service or that such conditions were the result of

“natural progression” of preexisting injuries or diseases as in
(3), above.

(5) The foregoing presumptions may be overcome only by a preponderance of the evidence, which differs from

personal opinion, speculation, or conjecture. When reasonable doubt exists about a Soldier’s condition, an attempt

should be made to resolve the doubt by further clinical investigation and observation and by consideration of any other

evidence that may apply. In the absence of such proof by the preponderance of the evidence, reasonable doubt should

be resolved in favor of the Soldier.

b. Processing for separation or retirement from active service.

(1) Disability compensation is not an entitlement acquired by reason of service-incurred illness or injury; rather, it is

provided to Soldiers whose service is interrupted and they can no longer continue to reasonably perform because of a

physical disability incurred or aggravated in service.

(2) When a Soldier is being processed for separation or retirement for reasons other than physical disability,

continued performance of assigned duty commensurate with his or her rank or grade until the Soldier is scheduled for

separation or retirement, creates a presumption that the Soldier is fit. An enlisted Soldier whose reenlistment has been

approved before the end of his or her current enlistment, is not processing for separation; therefore, this rule does not

apply. The presumption of fitness may be overcome if the evidence establishes that—

(a)

The Soldier was, in fact, physically unable to perform adequately the duties of his or her office, grade, rank or

4 AR 635–40 • 8 February 2006

rating for a period of time because of disability. There must be a causative relationship between the less than adequate

duty performance and the unfitting medical condition or conditions.

(b)

An acute, grave illness or injury or other significant deterioration of the Soldier’s physical condition occurred

immediately prior to, or coincident with processing for separation or retirement for reasons other than physical

disability and which rendered the Soldier unfit for further duty.

(3) A Soldier previously found unfit but approved for continuation on active duty (COAD) is evaluated according to

chapter 6.
 
Ed,

First the AR 635-40 cite is outdated in terms of the evidence required to overcome the presumption of fitness and service aggravation. The new standard, since 2008, requires clear and unmistakable evidence to overcome the presumptions of sound condition and service aggravation.

Your quote " When a military retiree is recalled to active duty it is in a retired status (check your orders). Therefore, your retired status doesn't change. So there is no loss of career to compensate for . . ." seemed to imply that once retired, there would not be cause for DES referral if recalled. This has been an issue of discussion in the Army and I don't know if it has been resolved.

Presumption of fitness is not based on the submission of a retirement application but rather the approval of a retirement application. This was true in my case. While I had applied for LOS retirement it had not been approved as of yet and my DES processing continued. I will tell you that the rationale for applying for retirement and not continuing my career was largely due to the impact of my numerous medical conditions. In my case I was found fit (denied a formal board to dispute the fit finding), and my LOS retirement application was denied. My second application for LOS retirement was approved and I have been rated at 100% P&T by the VA since the day I retired so I do have issues with the fidelity of the Army PDES.

It terms of the presumption of fitness, indeed a grave injury or disease can overcome the presumption. But an increase in a condition's impact can also overcome the presumption of fitness. If one has a known condition upon recall and it takes a turn for the worse while recalled, the DES processing is appropriate. If a member is not performing duties commensurable with their office rank and experience can also be cause for overcoming the presumption of fitness.

Again the fitness of the retiree, as a recallable member of the reserve, is an issue the DES must evaluate. MEB/PEB is not just for compensating a member when the career is impacted by disability, it also is needed to assess fitness and maintain a fit force.

Below is the presumption of fitness rules from DoDI 1332.38 that service regulations haven't always captured adequately.

Mike


E3.P3.5. Presumption of Fitness
E3.P3.5.1. Application. Except for Service members previously determined unfit and continued in a permanent limited duty status, Service members who are pending retirement at the time they are referred for physical disability evaluation enter the DES under a rebuttable presumption that they are physically fit. The DES compensates disabilities when they cause or contribute to career termination. Continued performance of duty until a Service member is approved for length of service retirement creates a rebuttable presumption that a Service member’s medical conditions have not caused career termination.
E3.P3.5.2. Presumptive Period. Service members shall be considered to be pending retirement when the dictation of the member’s MEB occurs after any of the circumstances designated in paragraphs E3.P3.5.2.1. through E3.P3.5.2.4., below.
E3.P3.5.2.1. When a member’s request for voluntary retirement has been approved. Revocation of voluntary retirement orders for purposes of referral into the DES does not negate application of the presumption.
E3.P3.5.2.2. An officer has been approved for Selective Early Retirement.
E3.P3.5.2.3. An officer is within 12 months of mandatory retirement due to age or length of service.
E3.P3.5.2.4. An enlisted member is within 12 months of his or her retention control point (RCP) or expiration of active obligated service (EAOS) but will be eligible for retirement at his or her RCP/EAOS.
E3.P3.5.3. Overcoming the Presumption. The presumption of fitness rule shall be overcome when:
E3.P3.5.3.1. Within the presumptive period an acute, grave illness or injury occurs that would prevent the member from performing further duty if he or she were not retiring; or
E3.P3.5.3.2. Within the presumptive period a serious deterioration of a previously diagnosed condition, to include a chronic condition, occurs and the deterioration would preclude further duty if the member were not retiring; or
E3.P3.5.3.3. The condition for which the member is referred is a chronic condition and a preponderance of evidence establishes that the member was not performing duties befitting either his or her experience in the office, grade, rank, or rating before entering the presumptive period. When there has been no serious deterioration within the presumptive period, the ability to perform duty in the future shall not be a consideration.
 
FIRST, Thanks to all for this GREAT conversation! Mike I think you have it correct,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Ed, I must respectfully non-concur.
RR orders, My order recalling me to AD, do not mention "as a Retiree,"
"You are Recalled to Active Duty from Retired Status. You will proceed from you current location in time .........."

Also, in MY case, I was not within the 12 months before separation when I became ill and I was completely fit prior to recall as demonstrated by a Class I flight exam which is a higher standard.
The presumptive period was the next argument to over come, which I did by the evidenced stated on page 1. Mike 's example of the RR and IED is similar to the one I made. I was told by my lawyer I would never win, why, because no RR had ever won.
E3.P3.5.3.3. The condition for which the member is referred is a chronic condition and a preponderance of evidence establishes that the member was not performing duties befitting either his or her experience in the office, grade, rank, or rating before entering the presumptive period.
As a pilot, I was permanently medically grounded forever both military and civilian.
Finally, Everyone agreed My case over came the PoF, but remember no one had ever won.

Once I rebutted all the presumptive period arguments and "could a RR be disabled," the goal post was moved As I stated . I was told I was not that ill with incurable cancer, just not dieing fast enough. I felt as if I was being told, just go away,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I was told to do the ABCMR. My fear there was getting someone on the board entrenched in tradition, old school. After several appeals, I found a flaw in the system. The AR says, " you will have a fair and just hearing," I discovered the legal reviewer for the PEB and PDA appeal was on and the same. Not fair or just. This along with all the previous arguments, numerous errors of fact in the original 199, letters from 2 Doctors and the DoDI above was enough to carry the day. My case does the carry the sentence, "this case is not a presidency settling case."

So for the masses, I can only says, NEVER give up if in your heart of heart you believe you are right. I honestly believed in my fight and that I was correct within the Regs and law. I truly want to change the system, atlas, I fear I did not.
 
Second:=>
DOD 7000.14-R, VOLUME 7B, Chapter 64, page 4, states:

640401. Special Rule for Disability Retirement. Members retired for disability under 10 U.S.C., Chapter 61, Sections 1201 through 1222 remain subject to the offset required under 38 U.S.C. 5304 and 5305 for any retired pay they receive that is in excess of the amount of retired pay to which they would be entitled under any other provision of law based on service in the uniformed services, had they not retired for disability. Since retired pay in excess of the amount calculated for years in service is still subject to offset under the CRDP program, a member with an amount of retired pay remaining after offset of VA disability compensation that is greater than the amount calculated for years of service, is not eligible for any increase in payment of retired pay under the CRDP program.
http://comptroller.defense.gov/fmr/current/07b/index.html

My I point out, these 7 lines are made up of only 2 sentences. As a product of public education, I can only guess at what this legal mind was trying to get across.

But I am told by DFAS, I will not get any $ beyond a LOS retirement. If that is indeed true,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, then my Disability retirement from the Army, means little,,,,,,,,,,,,,, think about that. My LOS retirement is about 67% so therefore the 100% Army disability, (75% result) is useless. Now what is very nice is I get my VA rating at retirement because of IDES. VA is way backed up.

Am I missing something, I sure hope so?

EXAMPLE, If Little Johnny has a service connected, non combated related illness or injury, what does he get=>

$2000 (LOS retirement of X%, <75%)
$2500 (if 100%, Disability, which = 75% )
$800 (VA)

How much does Little Johnny get in the mail? and From who?
I was told,

$1200 from Army
$800 From VA
$800 CRDP

Total $2800, where did Little Johnny $500 go for his disability? Where would this ever benefit the SM? If this is OBE, sorry.
 
Lakeman: What was the appeal level at which you won your appeal?

Ed: I agree that it could be either decision that is the mistake - either Human Resources Command erred in putting me, and hundreds of other Retiree Recalls, on PDES orders (if there is no avenue by which our conditions can be adjuducated for permanent physical disability retirement) or the Physical Evaluation Board (part of Human Resources Command) is in error (their own Policy Memo says, "Retiree Recalls: Ther period of presumption rule will be applied to Soldiers who are recalled from a length of service retirement").

So which is the one in error? The preponderence of evidence lends itself to think that the PEB is wrong. Either way though, HRC needs to get this straightened out. IF the PEB is right, then Retiree recalls should NOT be put on PDES orders - simply allow us to re-retire and deal with the VA (right now, after 2.5 years of being in the disability eval system, I'm looking at having to deal with the VA anyway). If HRC is correct in putting us on PDES orders, then we should be able to be in a period of presumption - like all soldiers facing retirement - and let the disability chips fall where they may based on our evidence of overcoming the presumption of fitness rule.

How do we get HRC or DA to address and clean up this issue?
 
Lakeman: I just realized I misread one of your threads (part of my disability I'm afraid). You wrote: "Once I rebutted all the presumptive period arguments and "could a RR be disabled," - the question I have is how you overcame the "could a RR be disabled"?
 
I can't count how many errors I've fixed that were made by HRC and the PDA.

I truly hope this works out in your favor!
 
Recalled Retiree
go back and read page 1.
the fact ur getting a hearing, if u couldn't win, why should the Army bother with a MEB
codes on DD214 for a RR whom becomes disabled
7000r details how pay would be calulated for RR
RR AR also refs it

Mike Parker, is PM possible?
Also, where is Little Johnny's $

CRDP, DOES IT NOT EXCEED LOS RETIREMENT OR TOTAL MIL COMP CAN NOT EXCEED LOS RET?

RSO IS SINGING DIFF SONG. SEEMS TO BE A CONFUSING ISSUE IN MY CASE. I STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY EVEN HAVE A PEB FOR 100% (REALLY 75%) IF PAY IF COMPENSATION CAN NOT EXCEED LOS COMP.
 
RSO IS SINGING DIFF SONG. SEEMS TO BE A CONFUSING ISSUE IN MY CASE. I STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY EVEN HAVE A PEB FOR 100% (REALLY 75%) IF PAY IF COMPENSATION CAN NOT EXCEED LOS COMP.

You are mixing up disability retirement pay with CRDP (or perhaps combining the concepts). For disability retirement pay, the cap is 75% of your retired base pay. With CRDP, there is a cap of 2.5% times the members years of service times retired base pay (which may be where you are thinking that your "compensation cannot exceed LOS comp").
 
ok ..... is this a true statement, u can get the higher of disability pay or LOS, (over 20years) THEN CRDP up to the amount of ur LOS only to replace VA offset? OR r u saying, DisBility pay plus CRDP Can Not exceed LOS amount? IF that is what you are saying, then way even have disability if over 20 years.
 
ok ..... is this a true statement, u can get the higher of disability pay or LOS, (over 20years) THEN CRDP up to the amount of ur LOS only to replace VA offset? OR r u saying, DisBility pay plus CRDP Can Not exceed LOS amount? IF that is what you are saying, then way even have disability if over 20 years.

The first part, in bold.
 
In a 1 hour conferance call with DFAS, I briefed the total of ret/dis pay + CRDis caped at LOS. That is way I keep coming back to this. Never made sense to me. BTW, MOAA briefed the same as DFAS.
 
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