No appointments during PT per Division???

I was told in a text that the division commander said no appointments during pt. I cant find any information on appointments anywhere on the net or in forums.

Any information about the legality of this and the references would be greatly appreciated. Particularly AR's.

Thank you.
 
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farshot6 said:
I was told in a text that the division commander said no appointments during pt. I cant find any information on appointments anywhere on the net or in forums.

Any information about the legality of this and the references would be greatly appreciated. Particularly AR's.

Thank you.
Click to expand...

I would say he is the CG and can put any directive in place he wants as long as it's not illegal, immoral, or a safety hazard. Just like all directives, there are exceptions to the policy. I am sure if you have an appointment that is critical to your treatment and can not be done during normal duty hours, you will be granted an exception.

We may be in the MED board process, but are still in the military. That in itself makes his order valid as long as it's not illegal, immoral or a safety hazard.

Just out of curiosity, what appointment do you need to make that can't be done any other time? Not trying to bust your balls, but it seems as if you may be overreacting.
 
Not sure there is an actual AR, but it may be in a CG policy letter on whatever post you are on. I've had appointments during PT and haven't had any negative fallout from it from anyone whether I was with a Division size element or even here where I am now, which is basically a detachment sized element. Trust me I've seen alot of staff types at appt's during pt hours. When I was stationed in one division there was a CG policy of no smoking between the hours of 0600-0800 (pt hours) but everyone did it, doesn't make it right but they did anyway. As I said it may be a post command policy, you may have to look on your post's web site and see if it is there.
 
Thank you for the replies. Its not a particular appointment more or less general information. Im told that they have to be able to show proof in the form of a memorandum or policy letter.
 
RANT ON!!

Why do they have to show you proof? Last time i checked it is still the military. The same one that you raised your right hand and agreed to obey. The officers and NCO's above you have the right to give you guidance, and direction. The military is NOT a civilian job.

I may seem like I am being a bit harsh, but I think that you are being unreasonable in expecting to be shown a memo, or policy letter. Like I said before, if you have an appointment that is a medical necessity, and can't be done anytime other than PT hours, then you would have have something to stand on. If it's just because you don't like the policy, then you are in the wrong business. The fact is, your company commander could implement the same policy for just his soldiers, even if the rest of the Division had no such policy.

I guess my main point is you have to pick and choose battles based on whether it really makes a difference in the big picture. If I fought against everything I thought was dumb in my 13 years in the Army, I would be a wreck. By fighting against every little thing, you put yourself in a category that you don't want to be in, and will find it's very difficult to get any help when you need it. In this situation, I would accept the word of the NCO until it becomes an issue with you NOT being able to make a medically important appointment. Then you use the Obudsman and medical channels to make the COC explain why your treatment for your conditions where interrupted.

Rant Off

Good luck
 
Hey Ranger, how about you pause your rant and chill out, he may have dealt with many NCO's And Officer's that jump the gun and act the way you are about his question! your mentality is the exact mentality that slows down and makes the MEB / PEB process more difficult, there is nothing wrong with some one using their brain and thinking ahead instead of following blindly, take a deep breath big guy
 
Thanks ranger. I understand your point of view and even agree to an extent. I have been dragged around for 4 years and just recently started to fight back instead of taking crap without question. When I decided the people working my case seemed to be relaxed a bit to much I went digging. I have 12 "unfit" conditions, not 1 like they say. I hope you understand that its not always so simple and being a soldier for 13 years you should know they will use your ignorance against you. I am using the ombudsman and legal representation.

Mad your absolutely correct about the command jumping the gun. I have found that most of the time they don't know what they are talking about but just saying what they heard. I will have to add another 6 months to my process because I was naive. The 2nd opinions and rebuttal are now required to get what I feel deserve.
 
My take; if you have 12 conditions that hinder your ability to do PT how are you PTing?

End result; I would just schedule the appointments. If one happens to be on that day inform them early. They cant tell you cant go to an appointment.

Ranger is correct to an extent but medical ailments come first. I was in the Marine Corps and understand his logic but when someone is sick the right thing to do is give them room to do whatever is necessary to get medical attention. Additionally, within reason of course.

Furthermore; I have close to 16 years in service and my thought process has changed a lot going through this trash myself.

End result; a service member has a "legitimate" medical condition/s they should be treated with respect and compassion. The tough NCO attitude under these conditions do nothing but hurt an organization.

Also; don't burn bridges you may need a recommendation or anything in the future.
 
They can in fact tell you not to go to an appointment. However, they do so at their own risk. (legal ramifications if further injury occurs) The order must come from the individuals commanding officer or be condoned by such.

As ranger stated "NOT a civilian job."
 
You hit it on the head "own risk". I am a senior NCO and I am not going to tell a service member to cancel his appointment to come to PT. Someone will be explaining in the end if something negative happens.
 
I have read it somewhere and I believe it is in DODI 1332.38. It stated that appointments that are for the MEB are basically mandatory and have priority. I'm an E7 and had to come up with this because leadership was giving me a hard time. I'm AF and was made to attended the Sq PT but all I did was walk or sit and watched. The best advice I can give you is don't create a situation when you don't need to. I've seen some leadership don't care and will make your life worse for fighting them. They are always right no matter how wrong they are and after your out you can do what you want. I hobble by them and never respond to whatever they say but I'm retired now.
 
Jeep thats exactly what I do, sit and watch, walk, sit more. I searched the reference given but am empty handed. Thank you still!
 
I was wrong. I found it in an AFI but there should be something for the Army. I've attached it anyways because it may help someone else. Do a search on the internet for the Army that is how I found this.

AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION 10-203
DUTY LIMITING CONDITIONS

2.11. Member’s Commander.
2.11.2. Ensures the member is available for and completes examinations including required follow-up studies and final disposition.

2.12. Member.
2.12.2. Meets scheduled medical appointments as directed. Informs unit supervisor of required follow-up evaluations and appointments. Reports all medical/dental treatment obtained through civilian
sources or any medical condition that hinders duty performance to the appropriate military medical authority. See AFI 48-123, V2, Chapter 5 for additional guidance regarding ARC members.
2.12.3. Member must make all attempts to resolve medical condition in timely manner. This includes but is not limited to attendance at all appointments, active participation in rehabilitation, and using
medications as prescribed by their physician. Failure to meet this requirement as determined by medical authority and commander may result in MEB and resultant administrative separation from the
USAF, without medical disability compensation. See AFI 48-123V2, Chapter 5 for additional guidance regarding ARC members.
2.12.4. Defer the following actions when a member’s failure to comply with medical assessment requirements renders the Air Force Medical Service unable to determine a member’s current medical
status: clearance actions for deployment, PCS, retraining or attendance at service academies or Professional Military Education (PME). Defer such actions until the member’s physical status can be
determined.
2.12.4.1. When a member declines an invasive procedure recommended for a return to functional status, they will be offered a second opinion. If the second opinion concurs with the first
recommendation and the member still declines, they will be processed for MEB or WWD as appropriate with possible separation without disability compensation.
 
I have seen these type of policies and never agreed with them. For one, it waste resources. If the medical facilities are open and staffed to provide services during PT hours but no one is allowed to use them, there is a serious waste of manpower and resources at that installation. My unit has a policy of no medical appointments before 0900 and I constantly have to explain why Soldiers have appointments during this time. For example, the required yearly dental exam is done on a walk-in basis from 0700-0859. So if we followed this policy to the letter, none of the unit's Soldiers could get dental exams which makes them medically non-deployable in MEDPROS. And since we are in Germany, medical appointments for most specialty care is in Landstuhl (LRMC) which is an hour and half away so for a 0900 appointment at LRMC, Soldiers have to depart during PT time in order make appointments. My unit also has a policy that if a Soldier misses an appointment, the Soldier and their leadership must give a briefing on why they missed the appointment. The briefing must be a Power Point presentation and the Soldier must wear his dress uniform. This briefing requirement includes appointments cancelled by the medical facility which were no fault of the Soldier. The medical command sends out a weekly missed appointment spreadsheet and if your on in, regardless of why the appointment was missed or cancelled, you must get dressed up and give a briefing, The moral of the story is that sometimes things just don't make sense and we have to roll with the punches.
 
My unit was the same way except no appointments until the afternoon, there were some exceptions. But we are not talking a supposed healthy person, we are talking about an individual who the military is working on removing from service to replace with a healthy individual. Why would the commander drag his feet to keep someone unable to give him 100%? Having been the person "booted" to the curb, I agree I had no business remaining on AD no matter how badly I did not want to go. Taking advange of the situation will only bring more pain and suffering so I would not do that. My leaders tried to take all my appointments away and required me to work longer hours. My commander letter stated 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 people had to follow me around to correct all my mistakes. This was a lie but why would they want me around if that were true but this isn't about me.
 
The military will always manage to the lowest common denominator. Is it stupid, yes!. Is there another way, probably not.

Units are going crazy about missed appointments because medical put's that info on slides that go to higher command. That rolls down hill until it finally finds the unit commander during the weekly command and staff. The commander is embarrassed, and pissed. He is going to have a knee jerk reaction, and his NCO chain is going to come up with a creative solution. It's just reality. I have seen it for 13 years.

The masses are victimized by a few stupid service members. The guys that miss appointments, skip PT, drink and drive, etc, etc. These guys drive the knee jerk reactions. 13 years ago I never would have imagined that I would have to wear a combat helmet, goggles, gloves and a safety belt so I could drive a gator at the mind blowing speed of 5mph. That stuff came from the few idiots who couldn't drive them in a responsible manner.

So what does that have to do with us? We are in the MEB process. Most for very valid reasons, but we are victimized by the few that work the system. I am assigned to a WTU and I see some really worthy warriors on a daily basis. I also see guys that are gaming the system to get anything they can. These are the same guys that miss appointments, skip pt, play video games all day, and complain when they are asked to do anything. These guys tend to be our spokespersons for "MEB" soldiers, and make us all look like douche bags. This is just in the WTU. A battalion of wounded warriors.

No take all the guys who don't make it into WTU and do MEB at their unit. They are working in a pack of "alpha" personality's that see any sign of weakness as blood in the water. Just like the WTU, most going through MEB have valid and honorable reasons, but get tagged as dirt bags because of the few that game the system. The guys that hit sick call 3 times a week for nothing other than to miss pt. They are the guys who fight against every little thing for no obvious reason other than to make things difficult. These are the guys who make this whole process miserable. They cause the command to use that knee jerk reaction on all of us.

I am a CW2 in the Army. I have an E6 as a squad leader and a E7 as a platoon sergeant. Could I bow up my neck and resist everything they tell me to do? Absolutely!!, but I choose not to. I prefer to try and support them and the system. Lead from the front and show I am no better than the PFC who is going through the same process.

Anyway, it is what it is. Sorry this thread has become much more than it really needed to be.

Respectfully,

Joseph A. Zumwalt
CW2, AV
 
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