Is it legal to seek help outside the military?

I wouldnt keep it in your back pocket. I would rout it through as soon as possible. This will create more movement with your case. and I would also keep seeing outside help if possible, this will strengthen your claim. Those Docs you are dealing with are just butt hurt that you went outside of them. Next to some pilots, those are the most egotistical S.O.B.s in the AF. But ask yourself this, if they were really good Drs, why would they stay in the AF? all they are doing right now is padding their resume.

My MH Doc here is a certified social worker.........thats it.
 
You have a right to receive quality care from people you trust. These doctors are at best horribly misinformed, or at worst, manipulating and taking advantage of Soldiers in an attempt to protect the Army's bottom line.

I'll say what I said before - I sought outside care and paid out of pocket for it (tricare did eventually give the guy like 10$ an hour). My outside doctor provided me statements that were VITAL to getting my MH condition listed as unfitting. You need to use the systems that are in place to protect Soldiers rights - IG, Soldier's MEB Counsel, OMBUDSMAN, or even a letter to your representative in Congress. Their behavior is rotten and needs to be exposed.

This strikes a cord with me because one of my best friends committed suicide last year. He had attempted to use behavioral health on post but for whatever reason they wouldn't schedule him more than once every six weeks or so. Technically there was no clear wrong doing on their part that I'm aware of, but my feeling on the matter is that if they were more concerned about his well being and less concerned about their bottom line, they would've diagnosed his PTSD and actually helped him.

Please do not allow yourself to be put in that boat.
 
It's perfectly legal to seek help outside of the military. As Mike said you might run into some out of pocket expenses, but sometimes it would be for your benefit. Try contacting Tricare, to see what they will cover. Also, tell the doctors you want to see a specialist, and get a 2nd opinion. If they deny you, ask for a written reason. Get everything documented and file a complaint. Another route would be to go to the tricare office and ask for a new doctor. They can change it.
 
Tomcat.USN said:
It's perfectly legal to seek help outside of the military. As Mike said you might run into some out of pocket expenses, but sometimes it would be for your benefit. Try contacting Tricare, to see what they will cover. Also, tell the doctors you want to see a specialist, and get a 2nd opinion. If they deny you, ask for a written reason. Get everything documented and file a complaint. Another route would be to go to the tricare office and ask for a new doctor. They can change it.
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*If the doc complies with your request for a refferel tricare will pay for everything to send you to a civilian specialist. Good Luck.
 
Good advice guys, all have been very well thought out and thanks for supporting him!
 
Fiasco007 said:
I wouldnt keep it in your back pocket. I would rout it through as soon as possible. This will create more movement with your case. and I would also keep seeing outside help if possible, this will strengthen your claim. Those Docs you are dealing with are just butt hurt that you went outside of them. Next to some pilots, those are the most egotistical S.O.B.s in the AF. But ask yourself this, if they were really good Drs, why would they stay in the AF? all they are doing right now is padding their resume.

My MH Doc here is a certified social worker.........thats it.
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One of my MH "Doc's" is a certified social worker, I trusted him up until he threw the UCMJ comment at me :(
I see the other doc every now and then for my medications.

Mike1983 said:
You have a right to receive quality care from people you trust. These doctors are at best horribly misinformed, or at worst, manipulating and taking advantage of Soldiers in an attempt to protect the Army's bottom line.

I'll say what I said before - I sought outside care and paid out of pocket for it (tricare did eventually give the guy like 10$ an hour). My outside doctor provided me statements that were VITAL to getting my MH condition listed as unfitting. You need to use the systems that are in place to protect Soldiers rights - IG, Soldier's MEB Counsel, OMBUDSMAN, or even a letter to your representative in Congress. Their behavior is rotten and needs to be exposed.

This strikes a cord with me because one of my best friends committed suicide last year. He had attempted to use behavioral health on post but for whatever reason they wouldn't schedule him more than once every six weeks or so. Technically there was no clear wrong doing on their part that I'm aware of, but my feeling on the matter is that if they were more concerned about his well being and less concerned about their bottom line, they would've diagnosed his PTSD and actually helped him.

Please do not allow yourself to be put in that boat.
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Mike. Thank you for sharing the story about your best friend - I lost my mentor a couple assignments ago to suicide so I know where you are coming from. I'm sorry you lost your friend. Hit me up if you ever want to talk - sometimes you just need to talk it out.

I'm leaning towards an IG complaint or going through patient advocate but a Congressional complaint has possibilities too as my Congresscritter is a Doctor.

Tomcat.USN said:
It's perfectly legal to seek help outside of the military. As Mike said you might run into some out of pocket expenses, but sometimes it would be for your benefit. Try contacting Tricare, to see what they will cover. Also, tell the doctors you want to see a specialist, and get a 2nd opinion. If they deny you, ask for a written reason. Get everything documented and file a complaint. Another route would be to go to the tricare office and ask for a new doctor. They can change it.
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Sadly with me being stationed overseas my options are severely limited in that regard. The "Med doc" mentioned above is the only MH doc capable of prescribing medication on this base. Talked to tricare already - they would need a referral from my PCM. Talked to my PCM, he tried to put in a referral for me to get care but the claim was denied since the capability exists here on base. Feel like I'm in a no win situation here.


Spoke with the Area Defense Counsel again today for advice about getting a new provider - among other things he said something to the effect of "even if you get your MH provider changed it's likely to be a peer of your current provider and someone who has the same rater - so don't expect much to change" ARRRHRHHFHGHHGGhhhhhhh.

ADC did say if I wrote up an MFR asking for a new doctor that they would review it for me. Think I may try that but I don't know. If I fly "under the radar" and just keep paying for sessions out of pocket I avoid the confrontation - I *HATE* confrontation. Other option is give the ADC permission to talk with my docs and see what the heck they are talking about with the UCMJ action stuff but if I'm going to go that route I might as well go to the IG.
 
It drives me crazy to see wanton threats of UCMJ action where none are warranted. I spent three years as a Senior Trial Counsel (prosecutor) in a three star command and I don't have enough digits on my hands and feet to recount how often people erroneously threatened UCMJ action for non-existent offences.

Now, as far as complaining about the "threat." My view is that you only take action where it will help your case and to take no action where doing so might hurt your case. It is a classic "cost/benefit" analysis. Do you gain something that helps you by pushing a complaint about this. I mean specifically to help you (not in terms of punishing or correcting the outrage that happened). Probably not. Can it possibly hurt you to do so? Again, probably not. But, given the lack of likely help you and the relatively mild outcome as far as action against the person who suggested UCMJ action against you, I see little benefit to you and also a very slight chance of it hurting you. Given the balance, I would probably let that issue go and fight for the best outcome in your case (i.e., I would not expend energy fighting some idiot health care provider who can't impact your case with the UCMJ issue, when you probably are better served making sure your case is well documented in terms of diagnoses and impact on duty performance). There are a million errors and inequities in most cases. However, keep your eyes on your ultimate goal of getting your well deserved compensation and benefits and don't get distracted by morons along the way. What most concerns me would be the adjustment disorder condition suggested....this causes a lot of problems because (in my opinion) the clear error of the military claiming that adjustment disorders are not compensable. That may be your main fight if that diagnosis "sticks."
 
Jason Perry said:
It drives me crazy to see wanton threats of UCMJ action where none are warranted. I spent three years as a Senior Trial Counsel (prosecutor) in a three star command and I don't have enough digits on my hands and feet to recount how often people erroneously threatened UCMJ action for non-existent offences.

Now, as far as complaining about the "threat." My view is that you only take action where it will help your case and to take no action where doing so might hurt your case. It is a classic "cost/benefit" analysis. Do you gain something that helps you by pushing a complaint about this. I mean specifically to help you (not in terms of punishing or correcting the outrage that happened). Probably not. Can it possibly hurt you to do so? Again, probably not. But, given the lack of likely help you and the relatively mild outcome as far as action against the person who suggested UCMJ action against you, I see little benefit to you and also a very slight chance of it hurting you. Given the balance, I would probably let that issue go and fight for the best outcome in your case (i.e., I would not expend energy fighting some idiot health care provider who can't impact your case with the UCMJ issue, when you probably are better served making sure your case is well documented in terms of diagnoses and impact on duty performance).
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Thanks for weighing in Jason. Your summation of your feelings about the "cost/benefit" analysis very closely mirror what the ADC said to me today. I think I'm going to continue with treatment as I have been both in and outside the military and just document the issues in a MFR and hang onto it for appeal purposes.


Jason Perry said:
There are a million errors and inequities in most cases. However, keep your eyes on your ultimate goal of getting your well deserved compensation and benefits and don't get distracted by morons along the way. What most concerns me would be the adjustment disorder condition suggested....this causes a lot of problems because (in my opinion) the clear error of the military claiming tjhat adjustment disorders are not compensable. That may be your main fight if that diagnosis "sticks."
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Jason, I'm concerned that I'm in the early stages of them just writing me off as a "not unfitting" condition as they are prone to do with Adjustment Disorders. Are you saying that adjustment disorders ARE compensable? If so can you point me in the right direction for some documentation along those lines? I'm building a folder for my case with relevant regulations and letters in case/when I have to appeal. I'm not sure how far I'll get at the MEB level as the head psyc doc here is one of the ones that was going on about UCMJ action and claims that the only boardable mental health conditions are major depression or psychosis.
 
I'm pretty sure the DoD doesn't compensate for adjustment disorder. The funny thing is, if you talk to any mental health professionals outside of the military, it's a joke how adjustment disorder is used to deny benefits. Your best bet, like Jason said, is to get with a provider not affiliated with the military (unfortunately you may have to pay out of pocket), who will diagnose your conditions in accordance with the DSM IV. That, coupled with a statement from your chain of command that talks about how your mental health condition impacts your duty performance (if you can get it) should help you tremendously.
 
Mike1983 said:
I'm pretty sure the DoD doesn't compensate for adjustment disorder. The funny thing is, if you talk to any mental health professionals outside of the military, it's a joke how adjustment disorder is used to deny benefits. Your best bet, like Jason said, is to get with a provider not affiliated with the military (unfortunately you may have to pay out of pocket), who will diagnose your conditions in accordance with the DSM IV. That, coupled with a statement from your chain of command that talks about how your mental health condition impacts your duty performance (if you can get it) should help you tremendously.
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Yeah. I have a letter from the Clinical Psychologist I saw in the states who details her diagnosis and it includes a very well written tongue lashing for anyone who under-diagnoses military members. Getting further care is going to be difficult as I'm overseas. I might be able to continue seeing the doc from the states but nothing is nailed down there yet.
 
usaf1 said:
Jason, I'm concerned that I'm in the early stages of them just writing me off as a "not unfitting" condition as they are prone to do with Adjustment Disorders. Are you saying that adjustment disorders ARE compensable? If so can you point me in the right direction for some documentation along those lines? I'm building a folder for my case with relevant regulations and letters in case/when I have to appeal. I'm not sure how far I'll get at the MEB level as the head psyc doc here is one of the ones that was going on about UCMJ action and claims that the only boardable mental health conditions are major depression or psychosis.
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The delima that the docs are going to face is did they follow the law, medical ethics, and the VASRD. You must do what you can to see the process through... Besides the docs that are treating you shouldn't be the ones on the board to go over your packet. Why? ETHICS! Since your directly being treated by them, they should have nothing to do with you board. If they are on the board, cry foul, attack them with Patient Advocacy and the Ombudsman on Medical Ethics... The DoD really doesn't want that fight!
 
Cost/Benefit analysis = Totally worth it. Not only in actual money, but in the satisfaction of getting that guys panties in a wad. Your rating/claim will be dependant on your records and his notes. At this point, the guy could very easily screw you out of what is rightfully yours, but writing what he wants, giving you a bogus gaf, not subscribing meds which is huge in the VA determination if you didnt know*** and by the time you actually realize that he screwed you, it will be too late, and more ass pain to get it fixed and your rating re-evaluated.

Besides, once you are out, you will probably never see this dude again, so does it really matter? also, no need for confrontation, just "concern that you are recieving the best med care available" if he has an issue wityh that, then maybe he is the one who needs a shrink. A second civilian opinion will pay dividends in the very near future. trust me.
 
How do you find out who sat on your initial board? i never even seen it.
 
Fiasco007 said:
Cost/Benefit analysis = Totally worth it. Not only in actual money, but in the satisfaction of getting that guys panties in a wad. Your rating/claim will be dependant on your records and his notes. At this point, the guy could very easily screw you out of what is rightfully yours, but writing what he wants, giving you a bogus gaf, not subscribing meds which is huge in the VA determination if you didnt know*** and by the time you actually realize that he screwed you, it will be too late, and more ass pain to get it fixed and your rating re-evaluated.

Besides, once you are out, you will probably never see this dude again, so does it really matter? also, no need for confrontation, just "concern that you are recieving the best med care available" if he has an issue wityh that, then maybe he is the one who needs a shrink. A second civilian opinion will pay dividends in the very near future. trust me.
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There is a side of me that wants to agree with you and go all out and try and make a point. BUT - at this point that's all it would be. Making a point. When the on base ADC AND our resident lawyer Jason Perry BOTH tell you the risk/reward ratio is a bit skewed then it's time to take a step back, calm down, document the issue well and find another way to make sure they can't screw things up.
In my case I've done some digging and found some local English speaking Psychologists about an hour away (I'm in japan so options are limited) to see on a recurring basis moving forward and see if I can A. Get some help from someone that I KNOW is actually looking out for my mental well being and B. Can help me document what the AF is choosing to ignore.

Fiasco007 said:
How do you find out who sat on your initial board? i never even seen it.
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I know that my MH doc will be sitting on my "board" because he told me he's the only person on this base that sits in on the MEB for the MH side of things. Also to clarify I have yet to meet the actual MEB, I just met a "Review in Lieu of" MEB which is another weird board the AF has added to try and cut down on the amount of folks that are going to be found fit having to go through the whole process. If you want to know who is/was on your board then ask your PEBLO if you can have a copy of the cover sheet/any paperwork from the board - it should have their names on it.
 
Fiasco007 said:
Cost/Benefit analysis = Totally worth it. Not only in actual money, but in the satisfaction of getting that guys panties in a wad. Your rating/claim will be dependant on your records and his notes. At this point, the guy could very easily screw you out of what is rightfully yours, but writing what he wants, giving you a bogus gaf, not subscribing meds which is huge in the VA determination if you didnt know*** and by the time you actually realize that he screwed you, it will be too late, and more ass pain to get it fixed and your rating re-evaluated.

Besides, once you are out, you will probably never see this dude again, so does it really matter? also, no need for confrontation, just "concern that you are recieving the best med care available" if he has an issue wityh that, then maybe he is the one who needs a shrink. A second civilian opinion will pay dividends in the very near future. trust me.
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I have seen more bad results of efforts to challenge issues outside of the relevant issues in a case (usually, fitness and ratings issues) than I have ever seen any good outcome from such challenges. I have even seen specific bad findings as a result of challenging non-relevant issues (in one case that I am thinking of, when I was on active duty as a JAG representing the member at the PEB, a board member mentioned to after the case that they would have been inclined to vote in favor of the member using their discretion, however, due to the additional scrutiny of the case as a result of Congressional inquiry ((initiated before my representation)), they were not inclined to vote in what the member thought would go against the regulations and later review by the APDA- that is, the PEB member might have voted in favor of the member, but against what the regulations stated, but for the review from higher authorities that would disclose the favorable action that was contrary to law and regulation).

No one except the member undergoing the case can decide what is best for them. All I can say is the main fight should be on the relevant issues. Challenging other case non-relevant issues can hurt you, and does nothing to address the relevant issues in a case. The fight should be on the relevant issues.

All of these types of issues are in the realm of "an art and not a science," and reasonable people might disagree. However, I just offer my observations on what is effective in getting a good outcome in having been involved with many hundreds of cases over 7 years of representing members at PEB hearings. I have never seen the types of complaints contemplated by the original poster work to any type of favorable outcome. And in a handful of cases, I have seen bad results of this type of action. But, no one is forced to listen to my thoughts.

What is horribly frustrating to me is when people screw up a meritorious case by doing things that hurt their case. Can't say that this is the definite result of a complaint- but I do know that such a complaint, in the situation described, does not help the point that needs to be made; the member is unfit and at an appropriate rating.
 
BTW, this is not to suggest the complaints are always disfavored. In some instances, it makes sense. However, fighting about an issue that does not impact case outcome does not make sense in most instances.
 
Jason Perry said:
What is horribly frustrating to me is when people screw up a meritorious case by doing things that hurt their case. Can't say that this is the definite result of a complaint- but I do know that such a complaint, in the situation described, does not help the point that needs to be made; the member is unfit and at an appropriate rating.
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That is exactly why I posted here Jason. I consider this form a place to bounce ideas off people who have been through similar situations. In this case I was contemplating action that probably would have hurt me in the long run but I said my piece here and got it off my chest. In the past when I'm angry at someone I will write an email to them just BLASTING them with all my frustrations. Then I save it as a draft and come back to it a few days later - 99.9% of the time I can see how unreasonable I was acting in that moment and it helps put things in perspective. Although I wasn't intending for it to be this way it appears that this thread has had a similar affect.

Bottom line? Concentrate on the things I CAN control. Don't let the nitpicky small ones get to me.
 
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