How early is a lawyer useful

floorflopper

PEB Forum Regular Member
I was recently notified that I would be going through a full MEB. The letter to my PEBLO said “Refer to IPEB” case. Please do NOT submit to AFPC/DPANM as a “Return to Duty” case...assuming that means I'm on my way out. At what point does a lawyer come into play and what can they do that I cannot do myself...I'm not very familiar with this new system. btw, the caps on NOT was in the original letter.
 
There is no need for a lawyer until they get to the NARSUM stage. At that point, if you appeal, a lawyer is helpful. Most active duty bases have MEB counsel who will do this free of charge.
 
I believe knowledgeable counsel from the onset can be paramount to a case, especially if it's a complicated case. It's far easier to prevent errors rather than fix them throughout. My own personal opinion is service members rely on the MTF, providers, and the PEB to "do the right thing" or adjudicate properly and don't think to reach out to counsel sooner rather than later.

I think you are a step ahead just for asking this question as early as you have.
 
You absolutely need a GOOD lawyer who handles DES cases. The majority of people who have been low balled and thrown out were either too stupid or too cheap to lawyer up when they needed to.

Contact Jason Perry. He will advise you as to the merits of your case and if you need a lawyer. If you do, then hire him.
 
What exactly do you think a lawyer is going to do prior to the generation of the NARSUM? They have no authority to drive your C&P appointments, your PEBLO interaction, or anything to do with your command. They are outside the system and can not come in until the door opens. The point that happens is when the NARSUM is created. Up until that point, you are paying money for nothing.
 
What exactly do you think a lawyer is going to do prior to the generation of the NARSUM? They have no authority to drive your C&P appointments, your PEBLO interaction, or anything to do with your command. They are outside the system and can not come in until the door opens. The point that happens is when the NARSUM is created. Up until that point, you are paying money for nothing.
I understand your main point, but someone experienced with the disability system can "coach" a SM through the process, help ensure the NARSUM is completed properly, and recommend formats for letters in support. A lawyer may not be able to reach out and touch someone directly early, but they can ensure the actions made by the SM are in accord with the plan.
 
The decision to hire a lawyer is at the core of the issue an individual choice that should be undertaken with an eye towards the costs and the benefits.

A disclaimer- recall that as an attorney who handles these cases, I have a vested financial interest in people hiring me. I don't think this changes or impacts my opinion, but it is fair for people to understand that the outcome does matter to me.

For those in the IDES (or those few legacy cases that remain in DES), there is always the option of using military attorneys at no cost. Starting with that issue, here is my take. Just like with paid civilian counsel, there are different quality of military attorneys. There are some very qualified and I think good military attorneys who I think do a great job. Depending on the individual attorney and which branch, though, you may find attorneys with very little experience or skill with these types of cases. Another issue with military attorneys is that, generally, they have no experience with appeals past the PEB level and, therefore, they may not be a good choice if there is likely to be an appeal.

Turning to civilian attorney and what they can do (and their value early in the process), here are my thoughts. In some cases, there is essentially no need for an attorney at all. That is, the case is prepared and evaluated correctly by the MEB, the issues are clear and undisputed, and the member is going to and does get a great outcome that they are satisfied with. In those types of cases, I would think there is no need to secure civilian counsel and the money for services is not well spent. However, if there are issues with the case and the outcome is not good, then having a qualified attorney, even with the costs involved, is absolutely needed to maximize the chances of a good ultimate outcome. A problem, though, is that if you forgo the attorneys help until late in the process, you may have missed early opportunities to present a good case and changing the outcome may be harder or impossible. A further problem is that often members going through IDES/DES do not know what issues are in their case or do not get an indication of a bad outcome until they get the results of the IPEB or sometimes the FPEB. Essentially, I think in some ways, having representation early may be somewhat like "insurance"- that is it may not be needed, but if something is going wrong, you will have wanted to have early representation. Again, this is all part of the "cost/benefit" analysis.

As for what an attorney can do before the MEB, it depends on the case. But, sometimes there is a lot to be done. Here are a few examples. (This has happened several times over the years, and have had variations of this with cardiac conditions where METS tests were not accomplished instead of PFT tests, with similar outcomes) I had a case where a member was treated and was evaluated for an "asthma-like" condition. She was never evaluated with a proper Pulmonary Fitness Test (there was no administration of inhaled medicine to get a valid predicted percentage of function), but her condition indicated quite serious limitations. Based on medication prescribed, it appeared that the member was set up for a 30% rating. As the case was being evaluated, I advised the member to get a referral to a pulmonary clinic and to get a properly conducted PFT. The result showed a disability equating to 60%. When the case finally moved through the MEB and the PEB, a 60% award was made. (A fair question is whether it was early representation that mattered- i.e., this may have been able to have been addressed later in the process...but, on the other hand, earlier valid examinations may have influenced both the MEB and the PEB in coming to an early correct outcome). This type of situation occurs fairly often.

A much more common occurrence is early counseling on what the members goals should be and strategies for reaching that goal. In maybe 10-20% of cases that I get involved with later in the process (post- IPEB through appeals), the member initially wants a different finding than they finally contend for. Sometimes they argue they are fit initially, gather all kinds of evidence showing how they are able to perform their duties and in some cases, make statements to their doctors that become part of the MEB or submit letters to the MEB before it is completed, but by the time they get to the FPEB, they change their minds and are fighting for retirement. In other cases, they do the opposite and are preparing early to show that they are unfit, but at the FPEB, they decide to argue that they are fit. In both cases, the earlier statements and evidence can present significant problems in reaching their desired outcome- and in some of these types of cases, you risk ending up with a less desirable outcome- severance at 10 or 20% rather than either a fit finding or retirement. (Note that early advice and representation could have obviated all appeals- a case prepared properly early could have meant a smooth MEB and IPEB with consistent findings and evidence the whole way through resulting in the member getting what they ultimately wanted; but, in some cases, the same outcome would occur no matter when representation was secured). Again, in some cases, earlier representation would not be necessary, and later representation served just as well as earlier. But, my experience says, earlier is better in these situations as it maximizes the chances for the PEB to come to a good outcome earlier rather than having to go through appeals to try to get the desired outcome. Much harder to backtrack and fight earlier positions than to have a consistent approach throughout the case.

A fair point, though, is that in some cases, there really is nothing to be done until the MEB results come back. This all goes back to the fact that each case is different and the need or desirability for an attorney at different points in the process is an individual choice.
 
I had an excellent experience with the MEBOC on Fort Riley. By talking to him early in the process, we were able to determine what the outcome of the MEB was likely to be, and I was able to begin gathering evidence from medical providers outside of the Army that carried the day during my appeal. The issue is, if you wait until your NARSUM, you have a very small window of time to develop any new evidence to help your case. You are pretty much stuck trying to re-interpret the evidence that already exists.
 
There are other avenues to seek assistance with out immediately hiring an outside attorney. Bruce at Ft. Riley is a very good example, as is his para-legal Nancy (assuming they are still there.) The development of your NARSUM is critical to achieving the correct end state. However, your NARSUM is not created in a vacuum by sketchy door to door salesmen. This is an open process. Your PCM and Nurse Case Manager (NCM) are both very good advocates on your behalf as you move towards the NARMSUM. Although the omsbudsman's role is limited in the medical arena, they can still be a good advocate and voice of reason if you have questions. If you feel like your NARSUM is not going to be reflective of your actual medical state, then ask your PCM about it. Ask your NCM about it, most army MTF's have hired NCM to assist with the MEB process prior to your PEBLO assigment. If you are in the WTU, then your NCM is probably already on your speed dial. I think Mr. Perry makes some fine points, but however, so does Ranger.
 
I have just received my P3 profile and have already talked to the Soldiers Counsel. The DAV is also another free option.
 
Great points Jason. Thank you so much for taking the time to break it out from a legal perspective. I probably approached my advice from more of a blunt point of view, which was to say the lawyer will not be able to impact the the case directly until NARSUM generation. I didn't want somebody to think they we going to hire a lawyer and have them make demands to a MTF, or commander, because that just wouldn't work. As you said, they can review your case and your goals and help you establish goals based on legal advice. That I think is a good thing.

Thanks again for all you do for this community.

Joe
 
If you haven't done so already, I'll encourage you to contact the Air Force Office of Airmen's Counsel at (210) 671-4295. They have attorneys and paralegals who focus exclusively on military/VA disability and can provide legal advice and counsel to you for free. Although the attorneys may not be actively involved in the case at its early stages, they can advise you about some of the common misconceptions and errors that occur in cases and help you be on the lookout for them. Additionally, although every case is unique and will be decided by the specific facts and circumstances of the case, the attorneys can provide you with some insight into what they have seen happen in similar situations and what the IPEB and FPEB may focus on. Bottom line: the more you know about the system, how it works, and what to expect the better off you are.
 
The decision to hire a lawyer is at the core of the issue an individual choice that should be undertaken with an eye towards the costs and the benefits.

A disclaimer- recall that as an attorney who handles these cases, I have a vested financial interest in people hiring me. I don't think this changes or impacts my opinion, but it is fair for people to understand that the outcome does matter to me.

For those in the IDES (or those few legacy cases that remain in DES), there is always the option of using military attorneys at no cost. Starting with that issue, here is my take. Just like with paid civilian counsel, there are different quality of military attorneys. There are some very qualified and I think good military attorneys who I think do a great job. Depending on the individual attorney and which branch, though, you may find attorneys with very little experience or skill with these types of cases. Another issue with military attorneys is that, generally, they have no experience with appeals past the PEB level and, therefore, they may not be a good choice if there is likely to be an appeal.

Turning to civilian attorney and what they can do (and their value early in the process), here are my thoughts. In some cases, there is essentially no need for an attorney at all. That is, the case is prepared and evaluated correctly by the MEB, the issues are clear and undisputed, and the member is going to and does get a great outcome that they are satisfied with. In those types of cases, I would think there is no need to secure civilian counsel and the money for services is not well spent. However, if there are issues with the case and the outcome is not good, then having a qualified attorney, even with the costs involved, is absolutely needed to maximize the chances of a good ultimate outcome. A problem, though, is that if you forgo the attorneys help until late in the process, you may have missed early opportunities to present a good case and changing the outcome may be harder or impossible. A further problem is that often members going through IDES/DES do not know what issues are in their case or do not get an indication of a bad outcome until they get the results of the IPEB or sometimes the FPEB. Essentially, I think in some ways, having representation early may be somewhat like "insurance"- that is it may not be needed, but if something is going wrong, you will have wanted to have early representation. Again, this is all part of the "cost/benefit" analysis.

As for what an attorney can do before the MEB, it depends on the case. But, sometimes there is a lot to be done. Here are a few examples. (This has happened several times over the years, and have had variations of this with cardiac conditions where METS tests were not accomplished instead of PFT tests, with similar outcomes) I had a case where a member was treated and was evaluated for an "asthma-like" condition. She was never evaluated with a proper Pulmonary Fitness Test (there was no administration of inhaled medicine to get a valid predicted percentage of function), but her condition indicated quite serious limitations. Based on medication prescribed, it appeared that the member was set up for a 30% rating. As the case was being evaluated, I advised the member to get a referral to a pulmonary clinic and to get a properly conducted PFT. The result showed a disability equating to 60%. When the case finally moved through the MEB and the PEB, a 60% award was made. (A fair question is whether it was early representation that mattered- i.e., this may have been able to have been addressed later in the process...but, on the other hand, earlier valid examinations may have influenced both the MEB and the PEB in coming to an early correct outcome). This type of situation occurs fairly often.

A much more common occurrence is early counseling on what the members goals should be and strategies for reaching that goal. In maybe 10-20% of cases that I get involved with later in the process (post- IPEB through appeals), the member initially wants a different finding than they finally contend for. Sometimes they argue they are fit initially, gather all kinds of evidence showing how they are able to perform their duties and in some cases, make statements to their doctors that become part of the MEB or submit letters to the MEB before it is completed, but by the time they get to the FPEB, they change their minds and are fighting for retirement. In other cases, they do the opposite and are preparing early to show that they are unfit, but at the FPEB, they decide to argue that they are fit. In both cases, the earlier statements and evidence can present significant problems in reaching their desired outcome- and in some of these types of cases, you risk ending up with a less desirable outcome- severance at 10 or 20% rather than either a fit finding or retirement. (Note that early advice and representation could have obviated all appeals- a case prepared properly early could have meant a smooth MEB and IPEB with consistent findings and evidence the whole way through resulting in the member getting what they ultimately wanted; but, in some cases, the same outcome would occur no matter when representation was secured). Again, in some cases, earlier representation would not be necessary, and later representation served just as well as earlier. But, my experience says, earlier is better in these situations as it maximizes the chances for the PEB to come to a good outcome earlier rather than having to go through appeals to try to get the desired outcome. Much harder to backtrack and fight earlier positions than to have a consistent approach throughout the case.

A fair point, though, is that in some cases, there really is nothing to be done until the MEB results come back. This all goes back to the fact that each case is different and the need or desirability for an attorney at different points in the process is an individual choice.
Jason,

My board process currently sits at the VA for ratings. My PEBLO is new and inexperienced, thus I have not had great counsel. I have been weighing my options as to what I will do when the VA ratings come back i.e. there is something in there that I dont agree with and I have to go to an FPEB. I am in the AF and have been trying to find someone on the military side to get advice from before the ratings come back. I called our legal office and they said the lawyers dont handle these types of cases. It seems weird to me that legal counsel is not made available so that people dont have to figure this out on their own. Do you have any advice?
 
You can use the free Jag attorney but they don't always have your best interest at heart. Mine for example, didn't even review my case file until the day prior to my FPEB. He couldn't even pronounce the name of the disease I have and he kept on referring to my mental health as PTSD, when I don't have PTSD at all. I flat out told him I felt like I was not going the be represented properly and he whined and his answer was that he had a very high caseload, essentially he was overworked. He sat in on 4-5 formal boards per week. Now if that is the case, how much time would a lawyer like that be spending on each individual case? Not enough!!!!

I didn't hire a lawyer and still had a good outcome. I wrote 4 out of 5 appeals and both of my VARRs. I was able to do so because I had some experience putting together logical arguments having been a commissioned officer completing 13 different formal 15-6 investigations in my career. Had I not had this writing experience my outcome would not have been good. I also was able to contact someone high in the VA that ordered a second set of CP exams so I was able to get a misdiagnosis overturned. Had that not happened exactly when it did, I would have had a poor outcome.

It's hard to say what kind of outcome you may have. Perhaps your doctors notes are solid and you have a diagnosis that is clear cut and easy to translate in the VASRD and you end up with a competent free JAG that cares. If so, you may have an easy path to a good outcome.

Perhaps none of that is true for you, poor Doctor notes, shitty Free Jag, medical condition that is obscure or easily misinterpreted in the VASRD then you are gambling in a high stakes poker game where DOD is the dealer and you just learned how to play poker five minutes ago.... You'll get your ass handed to you before you even knew what just happened!! If this is your case, then hire a good attorney that knows IDES well.
 
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Jason,

My board process currently sits at the VA for ratings. My PEBLO is new and inexperienced, thus I have not had great counsel. I have been weighing my options as to what I will do when the VA ratings come back i.e. there is something in there that I dont agree with and I have to go to an FPEB. I am in the AF and have been trying to find someone on the military side to get advice from before the ratings come back. I called our legal office and they said the lawyers dont handle these types of cases. It seems weird to me that legal counsel is not made available so that people dont have to figure this out on their own. Do you have any advice?

Have you reached out to the Office of Airmen's Counsel? They are the lawyers assigned to represent those going through MEB, they're stationed at Randolph AFB. Your PEBLO should have given you an MFR with information as to how to contact them. Once you do they'll assign you an attorney that will represent you throughout your case.
 
I think you hire a lawyer when you perceived the train is leaving the tracks and the benefit exceeds the cost. Most people should not need an attorney in the IDES process. Mine got a little off track, but the checks and balances got it back on course without much intervention from me. Like most things in the military its a process that has second and third looks at things.
 
You can use the free Jag attorney but they don't always have your best interest at heart. Mine for example, didn't even review my case file until the day prior to my FPEB. He couldn't even pronounce the name of the disease I have and he kept on referring to my mental health as PTSD, when I don't have PTSD at all. I flat out told him I felt like I was not going the be represented properly and he whined and his answer was that he had a very high caseload, essentially he was overworked. He sat in on 4-5 formal boards per week. Now if that is the case, how much time would a lawyer like that be spending on each individual case? Not enough!!!!

I didn't hire a lawyer and still had a good outcome. I wrote 4 out of 5 appeals and both of my VARRs. I was able to do so because I had some experience putting together logical arguments having been a commissioned officer completing 13 different formal 15-6 investigations in my career. Had I not had this writing experience my outcome would not have been good. I also was able to contact someone high in the VA that ordered a second set of CP exams so I was able to get a misdiagnosis overturned. Had that not happened exactly when it did, I would have had a poor outcome.

It's hard to say what kind of outcome you may have. Perhaps your doctors notes are solid and you have a diagnosis that is clear cut and easy to translate in the VASRD and you end up with a competent free JAG that cares. If so, you may have an easy path to a good outcome.

Perhaps none of that is true for you, poor Doctor notes, shitty Free Jag, medical condition that is obscure or easily misinterpreted in the VASRD then you are gambling in a high stakes poker game where DOD is the dealer and you just learned how to play poker five minutes ago.... You'll get your ass handed to you before you even knew what just happened!! If this is your case, then hire a good attorney that knows IDES well.

Nothing further to add -- the above reply should've painted the picture clear as water. You are literally playing your last cards, make sure you do know when and how to play your Aces, if you don't have them yet, find a way to find them, quick!
 
Have you reached out to the Office of Airmen's Counsel? They are the lawyers assigned to represent those going through MEB, they're stationed at Randolph AFB. Your PEBLO should have given you an MFR with information as to how to contact them. Once you do they'll assign you an attorney that will represent you throughout your case.

I have only a few comments about the military assigned attorneys. (Well, we will see if it is only "a few" comments).

First, I started my "education" and experience as a military assigned attorney. So, I know a bit about that duty position and what the potential issues are. Very often, I hear folks worry that the military attorney is not going to fight very hard for the client based on the fact that they are in the military and they may worry about their ratings or career. I have no reason to think this is true and, actually, I think this is a "non-issue." There is little to no chance that "winning" at the PEB is going to impact the ratings or evaluations of the JAG (or civilian assigned counsel). There is no "tracking" of wins-losses that goes on and there is really no reason to ever think that the assigned counsel cannot fight on the members behalf for fear of career ramifications. (Without going to much into the internal politics of the JAG Corps, suffice it to say that service at the PEBs is not a very common duty position in the first place, that nothing about service at the PEBs will make or break a JAGs career absent extremely unusual circumstances, and this is not a concern that anyone should have).

That said, understand that the JAGs often only get involved relatively late in the process, often do have a heavy caseload, and are often unlikely to offer much assistance or help to a great degree with appeals. Additionally, they are not able to assist with later appeals (be they to the Board for Correction of Military Records or in Federal Court), and as such, they have little to no experience with the issues that should or must be raised in order to preserve and advance arguments in later appeals. The problem with this is that it means that the military assigned attorney may only be focused on the arguments that are most likely to win at the PEB level- and, perhaps, may miss the issues or not raise the issues that are important should the member want to appeal the case later.

On the plus side, though, understand that the military assigned attorneys are well situated to know what arguments and issues will be compelling and likely to be accepted by the PEB. They are "down in the dirt" (as far as lawyers are ever down in the dirt) with the issues and the inclinations of the PEBs that they practice before. I have met and dealt with a great many of fine attorneys who are assigned counsel and they serve clients well everyday and competently. In a great many cases, they are well positioned and will get a good outcome for clients who have issues that are straight forward and/or common.

That said, for certain legal issues or in certain circumstances, the JAG/assigned attorney is not well equipped to assist in getting the correct outcome. If the military or the PEB takes an erroneous legal position about an issue, fighting that issue may well be better served by securing competent representation from a civilian attorney.

I think you hire a lawyer when you perceived the train is leaving the tracks and the benefit exceeds the cost. Most people should not need an attorney in the IDES process. Mine got a little off track, but the checks and balances got it back on course without much intervention from me. Like most things in the military its a process that has second and third looks at things.

This is a great point- there is always a "cost-benefit" analysis that factors in. When the case situation and outcome makes a huge difference and the issues are complex and not likely to resolve in the members' favor by "standard" arguments (and/or when the military is taking a position that is clearly contrary to law), then this mitigates toward choosing competent civilian counsel. When the issues are clear and/or the differential between the outcomes will not result in a great difference in compensation (or any difference), then this weighs towards using assigned counsel. (Personally, I spend a lot of time reviewing cases and telling folks that I am unlikely to "add anything" extra to the case and it does not make sense to secure my services).

I suppose, the bolded part, above, deserves comment. Going back to what military attorneys normally provide in the way of services, this idea of "first, second, third" looks is important. That is, I think that in an ideal world, folks have representation very early in the process (to get a fair look at the first and/or later consideration of the issues and the case) and throughout the process- including later appeals, if necessary. One of my concerns and/or criticisms of the current provision of advice and services from military assigned attorneys is that they often get involved too late in the process and do not (because, under the rules, they cannot) get involved later in the process. In an ideal world, there would be representation provided "cradle to grave" (i.e., from inception until completion) of members cases.

Getting back to an earlier point, though, for some folks, the results of the IDES/PEB are not so important. In some cases the results and their consequences are great.

Hope these thoughts help. Any questions, feel free to ask follow on questions.
 
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