Once you have entered the IDES process can you be chaptered out for ht/wt or APFT failure?
Can you be chaptered out during the IDES process for ht/wt or APFT failure
- Thread starter 13foxtrot40
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It could happen in extreme cases, but always has to be carried as a dual action discharge. What that means as both the MEB and hwt/wt chapter would run at the same time. At the end, the discharge authority will decide which chapter to use. It almost always will come back as the MEB and IDES being used for seperation.
What typically happens is commanders at lower levels think they can still chapter a service member and get rid of the sm before they get medically separated. They almost always get jammed up by higher level commands, and legal.
If they start a chapter, make sure you document everything and use legal channels along the way. Don't ask your command for anything, let the lawyers do that. Chances are, you had a lazy NCO, or officer who didn't do their due diligence and give you all the required counselings and appointments you were supposed to be afforded. A lawyer will poke holes in that, and the discharge authority will take the PEB and medical route.
Joe
Thanks, I am not flagged yet but am going to be placed in WTU and will be there and for the first time placed on weight control program, I started IDES in August. I weighed 140 lbs from 18 yrs old until I was placed on anti seizure meds 17 months ago up to 220 now authorized 184 for 34 yr old at 69 inches. I may make tape but really doubt it. What about APFT failure after starting the process?Weight gain is one of the negative side effects of 2500 mlgrams of depakote a day ,along with and I hope not kidney failure. I am sorry imall over the place I had some bad seizure activity today.
The WTU is a good place to be when you have complex medical conditions. I believe you are in good hands. The WTU also understands medical issues and how it can cause weight issues. With they being said, they also stick with the standard, and the Army calls for you to be entered into the weight control program unless waived by a Dr. Regardless of being waived or not, AR 600-9 says they have to flag you as well.
Don't take this as a negative or them trying to slam you. It is them following standards. Take advantage of the adaptive PT they have, and resources they can provide to help with your conditions. Remember, you will likely be separated, and be using this medication for a long time, and you don't want to end up being 500 lbs after the military. Just hang in there and do your best. You will be good.
Joe
I'd also like to suggest taking some time and doing an extra bit of exercising at the gym or even at home. Every little bit helps. Even if it is overhead claps, a few push-ups, walking a mile or two or even flexing your stomach muscles... Do what you are capable of doing!
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Actually, disability evaluation processing takes precedence over all non-misconduct administrative separations. (What ranger2992 discussed is the situation that normally happens with misconduct ADSEP actions- they are processed as dual action cases; in the Army, this means the General Court Martial Convening Authority will make the call).
So, for Ht/Wt, they can start a Chapter packet, but, cannot act on it unless you are first found fit by PEB (and that action is approved). (Not to say that I have not seen cases where Soldiers are actually Chaptered incorrectly....but, if that happens, an appeal should address the error).
So, for Ht/Wt, they can start a Chapter packet, but, cannot act on it unless you are first found fit by PEB (and that action is approved). (Not to say that I have not seen cases where Soldiers are actually Chaptered incorrectly....but, if that happens, an appeal should address the error).
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The reference is AR 635-200:
"1–33. Disposition through medical channels
a. Except in separation actions under chapter 10 and as provided in para 1–33b, disposition through medical
channels takes precedence over administrative separation processing."
"1–33. Disposition through medical channels
a. Except in separation actions under chapter 10 and as provided in para 1–33b, disposition through medical
channels takes precedence over administrative separation processing."
Thanks for clearing that up for me Jason. I misunderstood the regulation and your clarification is greatly appreciated.
To the original op; this should give you an extra layer of comfort. My advice still stands that you need to document everything, and do the best you can to maintain a weight that you can live with.
Joe
Like Joe mentioned earlier, the WTU is a great place to try to lose some of the weight you have put on as well. You may have the time to do it, as wel as supervision from many medical professionals. If you can get back into the weight standards it should also be positive for your health.
You have to become your own advocate, get with a dietician, get with occupational therapy and do the alternate physical fitness training plus more to take care of your self.
Slow and steady always wins the race.
You have to become your own advocate, get with a dietician, get with occupational therapy and do the alternate physical fitness training plus more to take care of your self.
Slow and steady always wins the race.
The reference is AR 635-200:
"1–33. Disposition through medical channels
a. Except in separation actions under chapter 10 and as provided in para 1–33b, disposition through medical
channels takes precedence over administrative separation processing." That works for enlisted, but I read through the officer's regs, and do not see anything that is that clearly stated. What am I missing?
"1–33. Disposition through medical channels
a. Except in separation actions under chapter 10 and as provided in para 1–33b, disposition through medical
channels takes precedence over administrative separation processing." That works for enlisted, but I read through the officer's regs, and do not see anything that is that clearly stated. What am I missing?
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It is not as clearly and simply stated as the enlisted regulation, but the same policy is stated in AR 600-8-24:
"1–24. Referral for physical disability evaluation
If a commissioned or warrant officer is being processed for REFRAD, separation, or retirement or has been referred for
elimination action, when it is determined that the officer has a medical impairment that does not meet medical retention
standards, the officer will be processed as set forth in paragraphs a, through d, below.
a. A commissioned or warrant officer under investigation for an offense chargeable under the Uniform Code of
Military Justice (UCMJ) that could result in dismissal or punitive discharge may not be referred for or continue
disability processing unless—
(1) The investigation ends without charges.
(2) The commander exercising proper court-martial jurisdiction dismisses the charges.
(3) The commander exercising proper court-martial jurisdiction refers the charge for trial to a court-martial that
cannot adjudge such a sentence.
b. When a commissioned or warrant officer, as applicable, is being processed for one of the actions listed in (1)
through (5), below, the officer will be processed in accordance with the provisions of this regulation and through the
MEB/PEB system. If the result of the physical disability evaluation is a finding of physical fitness, the Army Physical
Disability Agency will approve the findings for the Secretary of the Army and forward the proceedings to CDR,
HRC–Alexandria (AHRC–OPD–A), to be processed with the other action. If a physical disability evaluation results in a
finding of physical unfitness, both actions will be forwarded by CG, HRC–Alexandria (AHRC–OPD–A), to the
Secretary of the Army or his designee for determination of appropriate disposition.
(1) Referral to the DAADB except when the DAADB is convened as a result of an imposed reduction in force.
(2) Involuntary REFRAD due to civil conviction or moral turpitude.
(3) Resignation for the good of the service.
(4) Referral for elimination under chapter 4.
(5) Request for separation, resignation, or retirement in lieu of elimination.
c. When a physical disability evaluation of an officer processed for separation or retirement for the reasons indicated
above results in a finding of unfitness and a recommendation that the officer be placed on the Temporary Disability
Retirement List (TDRL), the Secretary of the Army or his designee may direct that the officer be placed on the TDRL
with the provision that if the officer is later removed in due course from the TDRL for disability separation or
retirement, the officer is to be retired, but if the officer is later removed in due course from the TDRL because he is
found fit, the officer is to be separated from the service, effective on the date of the officer’s removal from the TDRL
with a specified characterization of discharge. As in the case of an officer processed for separation or retirement for the
reasons indicated above whose physical disability evaluation results in a finding of unfitness and a recommendation
that the officer be separated or permanently retired, the Secretary of the Army or his designee may direct that either the
separation or retirement action under this regulation or the disability action take precedence.
d. When an officer is processed for separation or retirement for reasons other than those indicated above, physical disability takes precedence if the officer is retained with consent. The procedures in paragraph 1–22 will be followed.
e. Officers previously determined physically unfit and continued on AD under AR 635–40 must be referred for
disability evaluations at final retirement or separation."
"1–24. Referral for physical disability evaluation
If a commissioned or warrant officer is being processed for REFRAD, separation, or retirement or has been referred for
elimination action, when it is determined that the officer has a medical impairment that does not meet medical retention
standards, the officer will be processed as set forth in paragraphs a, through d, below.
a. A commissioned or warrant officer under investigation for an offense chargeable under the Uniform Code of
Military Justice (UCMJ) that could result in dismissal or punitive discharge may not be referred for or continue
disability processing unless—
(1) The investigation ends without charges.
(2) The commander exercising proper court-martial jurisdiction dismisses the charges.
(3) The commander exercising proper court-martial jurisdiction refers the charge for trial to a court-martial that
cannot adjudge such a sentence.
b. When a commissioned or warrant officer, as applicable, is being processed for one of the actions listed in (1)
through (5), below, the officer will be processed in accordance with the provisions of this regulation and through the
MEB/PEB system. If the result of the physical disability evaluation is a finding of physical fitness, the Army Physical
Disability Agency will approve the findings for the Secretary of the Army and forward the proceedings to CDR,
HRC–Alexandria (AHRC–OPD–A), to be processed with the other action. If a physical disability evaluation results in a
finding of physical unfitness, both actions will be forwarded by CG, HRC–Alexandria (AHRC–OPD–A), to the
Secretary of the Army or his designee for determination of appropriate disposition.
(1) Referral to the DAADB except when the DAADB is convened as a result of an imposed reduction in force.
(2) Involuntary REFRAD due to civil conviction or moral turpitude.
(3) Resignation for the good of the service.
(4) Referral for elimination under chapter 4.
(5) Request for separation, resignation, or retirement in lieu of elimination.
c. When a physical disability evaluation of an officer processed for separation or retirement for the reasons indicated
above results in a finding of unfitness and a recommendation that the officer be placed on the Temporary Disability
Retirement List (TDRL), the Secretary of the Army or his designee may direct that the officer be placed on the TDRL
with the provision that if the officer is later removed in due course from the TDRL for disability separation or
retirement, the officer is to be retired, but if the officer is later removed in due course from the TDRL because he is
found fit, the officer is to be separated from the service, effective on the date of the officer’s removal from the TDRL
with a specified characterization of discharge. As in the case of an officer processed for separation or retirement for the
reasons indicated above whose physical disability evaluation results in a finding of unfitness and a recommendation
that the officer be separated or permanently retired, the Secretary of the Army or his designee may direct that either the
separation or retirement action under this regulation or the disability action take precedence.
d. When an officer is processed for separation or retirement for reasons other than those indicated above, physical disability takes precedence if the officer is retained with consent. The procedures in paragraph 1–22 will be followed.
e. Officers previously determined physically unfit and continued on AD under AR 635–40 must be referred for
disability evaluations at final retirement or separation."
I understand what you are saying about it being used, but I only see it work on soldiers who don't know their rights, and are pressured to sign their chapter packet. Anytime I have seen a soldier go to JAG, or contact a lawyer, the option goes away. AR 600-9 is very clear on what a commander is required to do as far as weight control. As for PT failures they also have a detailed process to follow. Both require the soldier adequate time to correct the deficiency.
It is sad that the practice happens every day.
Joe
I had JAG officers have me "backdate" multiple HT/WT forms. Or at least try. Then I had a new JAG officer play the "magic statement" standards game.
Remember even the BCT JAG officer is out of the BCT CDR rating chain, and it's all up for interpretation. Depending on the type you get, there are two types...the ones that are pro command and the ones that are pro soldier.
It's extremely easy to to screw over soldiers. It's sad to say least.
What would be the reference for AF?